Kid social vs Adult social

[EvilZakkie]

I was thinking back to primary school & early high school this morning, and it occurred to me that even though I usually to preferred to read than talk to people, I generally did much better in groups as a kid than I did as an adult. Looking back, I think there were two main changes in social dynamics at around 16 that made it much more difficult to interact:

* People began to learn that ritual phrases were 'important', meaning that small talk began to replace conversation.
* People began to develop a fascination with alcohol, meaning that the idea of 'drinks' began to replace any actual activities.

So as a kid, my store of odd little facts and random ideas for things to do was actually an advantage, whereas as an adult, where the preferred social activity is usually sitting around drinking while talking about what they did on the weekend (which was often sitting around having drinks with a slightly different group of people), odd conversation topics and ideas are a huge disadvantage, and are largely ignored.

Has anyone else noticed these sorts of changes from groups of kids to groups of adults? Or are the social dynamics different in different countries?

[mirthmonkey]

Maybe at college with freshmen, though not so much around the math/science majors. I actually found it much easier to find people to socialize with beginning around age 14 - 16. Then again, I was around a lot of artsy people, writers and opera singers and such, so probably a bit different from the typical high school experience.

[hyke]

I volunteered quite a lot in the school of my girls. Sometimes sitting in the communal room, were children can go to work in groups or on their own. One day a remedial teacher (lot of 'of-normal' traits) grinningly said to me how she loved listening to the chatter or the kids, and how the talking became less interesting when children grew older. When regular children were around the age to leave primary school, they'd be amazing, talking an awful lot, about absolutely nothing. With the 'non-regular' kids this was not the case. They'd be talking about interesting things also at age 12.

So I followed her example of listening closer to the children. Indeed, the lot of them can handle social chit-chat to perfection around age 12.

For myself:

I found the younger classes at primary school not that bad, became harder later. The school after that was so big that I did find a few quirky friends/fellow students. One of them even stood up for me when all girls in class started shutting me out actively in conversation. Asking what was going on. Turned out they were planning a boating holiday, but accomodation was big enough for all girls, but one. So they choose to close their circle at lunch for me too. Not wanting to hurt me.... I never understood amazing social skills like that (sarcasm). I am still remembering the guy who stood up for me with a smile though.

I might have some friends at school. In the village where I lived I did not fit in with the kids I had been to primary school with. I thought it was because most of them went to a different school, as a group. I did get along with the two exeptions to that. They were also shut out of the mainstream popular group. We'd still have to meet, at lessons in church. And the not fitting in of the three of us was quite obvious.

The city I moved to after middle school was amazing. Very open to quirkyness. First place I ever felt at home. But I changed my subject to study and had to leave.

Funny thing is. In an ofline autism group, half of the members had lived in or near that city and was still sort of longing to go back. Because the whole culture there was quirky in a very autism friendly way. We all agreed that it was, and is, a very exceptional place.

I changed my subject, started living in another city, also filled with students. But never managed to feel at home there.

So I guess for me it is not all about age. But it does have something to do with it.

[Bella]

I think the difference you are talking about might be because kids tend to play games, so the socialising tends to be more activity based, where as when they get older, the culture tends towards just sitting around and talking.

Saying that, I didn't have any friends in Primary School until about Grade 4. I got along with this girl because she had an interest in My Little Ponies and also making houses out of pine needles. I don't think we actually played house, we just liked building up the walls. Basically I was able to get along with her because we did activities together. I don't think I was very good at socialising otherwise.

I found that as children got older, they seemed more 'forgiving'. In high school I managed to always be sitting with a group of girls. I wasn't very good at socialising though and mostly tended to stay quiet, but in pecking order terms I think that was liked, because it made me the lowest. I distinctly remember trying to follow conversations and finally coming up with something to say, and the conversation would switch to a different topic before I could get in.

I remember sitting near the back of class by myself in year eight and the boy behind me kept teasing me and asking me if I had a tongue. If the teacher knew, he did nothing. I think eventually I ended up standing up for myself and the teasing stopped. I never understood why being quiet bothered some people so much.

[Stefano]

Growing up as a child in a military family, I never attended the same school three years in a row, and the moves were often to different regions or even different countries (with vastly different social dynamics). Many of my social problems may have had to do with perpetually being the new kid, especially when the moves took place mid-school year. Another point of awkwardness was that I was academically well ahead of those my age

In general, I found the conversation get less and less interesting as high school approached. The general topics of interest turned from practically anything and everything to 1) drinking, 2) sex and dating, 3) drinking, and 4) sports. (I also nearly left three jobs over this, but was fired for 'not fitting in' before I could quit). The gender dynamic also changed from pretty much equal numbers to fewer and fewer girls. Up until 12 or 13, I felt more comfortable and got along better with females. Then I went to an all-boy school from 14 to 15, then back to public school in a new area at 16. I didn't have another female friend until I was 25.

My son's experience is a lot simpler. He has been going to the same school district since Kindergarten, and is now in 9th grade. Through elementary school, he had this unique ability to be welcome in any social group at all, and to freely move from one to the other. One of his teachers had observed this, and explained that usually kids do not tolerate members of their group going to other groups, as it is viewed as disloyalty. Also, there tended to be "girl groups" and "guy groups", groups associated by race, economic background, jocks (such as they are in elementary school), and the brainy kids. My son seemed to be accepted by all, for as long as he wanted to stay, and none ever felt threatened or rejected by his leaving, and never failed to accept him when he wandered back in.

Alas, that all changed when he began middle school at 6th grade. Suddenly he was not welcome (or not comfortable) in any group, as conversation topics changed to social jockeying, dating, and pretending to be adult, while he still thought in kiddie terms. He got on well with kids a few years younger than he was, being more on their level, but eventually that became awkward as well.

In 7th grade, he seemed to make many people uncomfortable. Many people thought of him as weird, even though he had always behaved the same way. To relieve others' anxiety, they sent him to a special school the next year which had only 7 other students in it. Now in regular HS, he has very few friends (I suspect that he has none). He asks many, many questions about socialization, and it is clear that he wants to, but just can't.

So, yeah, both of us, in general, found kid socialization much easier.

[pandora]

Generally, I found it somewhat easier to socialise in primary school and early grades of high school than later on and again, it was because in the earlier times, people were more impressed by my fund of general knowledge.

[mirthmonkey]

I remember when I was in first grade, and we had a substitute who did things in a different order or a slightly different way, other kids would tell the teacher the way things were supposed to be, and we had a play area with cars and a fake kitchen that we all tried to get to whenever possible, and when I was in kindergarten I had a shared activity of digging the Big Hole to the Very Bottom of the Sand Box.

Later things changed though and girls started caring about shampoo and shopping and make-up and styles and I was just me. They didn't understand why I wanted to know if things would change ahead of time. Why I'd rather read or play with a ball alone than chat about things I never cared about with someone who openly expressed disdain for me - incomprehensible (if they're popular).

[Morrigan]

For my daughter, I have still noticed her difference in play, and I am not sure it will ever change. She focuses so hard on whatever she is playing with that she forgets the kids around her. I mean, she believes that she is playing with them, but still, she plays next to them, not with them.

Her interests are also not changing in the same way as the other kids. She is still very interested in her stuffed animals, and the fun she has with them. She still loves her building blocks, and now makes these AMAZING complicated structures. Instead of being interested in the latest haircare products or the coolest jeans, she is pondering the reasons why the economy is in such bad shape, or quantum physics.

She is also, as she gets older, becoming more and more a "problem solver". Problem is, the kids she is interacting with do not have the same thoughts about how to solve the problems. She had a friend over recently and the other gal was not in a good mood, she was overtired and overstimulated (the friend has ADHD and had just gotten back from a trip and then came to visit...not good) and just stopped talking to my daughter. So my daughter said "Let's discuss this, there is an issue, and we need to solve it." The kid stonewalled her. She began to stare out the window. So my daughter closed the blinds. Then she switched on the TV. My daughter turned it off. She tried to ignore her, and so my daughter came and got me and said that she was upset, she had tried to "talk it out" with her friend, but that her friend was not willing, so she needed some help. It was SO GROWN UP. The other kid just could not figure it out. She was calm, and logical, and said that they needed to "solve their issues" and enjoy the time they had to play together.

So, I am very hopeful that at some point we can find a kid that she can really connect with.

[pandora]

Where I work, when it is the busy season (usually between July and November), our team members are often shifted around. This year is the worst ever. I was in a team with a support person sitting next to me and got on well with most of the other people. In the past 4 weeks, there have been two reshuffles, meaning that the support person is gone and only 6 of the original 15 team members are still in my team.

They have brought in some people who ostracised and gave me a bad time previously. Luckily, they are not sitting anywhere near me and a lady who is seen as supportive is sitting next to me. We are supposed to ask somebody for help whenever we get a piece of work that we don't know how to do instead of referring it to a more experienced officer.

I am not doing that because I don't feel comfortable in raising my queries with anybody else but the support person I had. This issue has been entirely glossed over and it is seen that I should have no problem coping because I have the same boss as before. There are distinct noise issues with some of the new people but when they were in the same team as me a couple of years ago and I raised this issue with the boss (the same one I have now) he just said he lets his people make a bit of noise.

He's not a bad person but ever since I first knew him (years ago), he has been good at dodging any issues that could be uncomfortable. It's easier to have me quietly mutter to myself and eventually get stressed enough to become ill than to confront two or three very assertive ladies who have also given him a hard time in the past.

The direction in which our organisation is heading is also not aspie friendly and I really don't know if it means that I will have to leave in a couple of years. It is a government department and it is on record that I have Asperger's so they are not allowed to discriminate but it doesn't stop gross thoughtlessness of the sort I've detailed above.


I thought getting the diagnosis and the notes on my file and the recognition that I have a disability would be enough to avoid the kind of cr@p that went on a few years ago but it seems that now I have to fight all over again.

[Joeker]

My views on this may be a little odd, just to forewarn.

As kids, it's a lot harder to distinguish right from wrong. Emotions rule the day, not reason, respect, and mutual acceptance of a social paradigm. Often, as children, there is an imposed social paradigm that children often test the boundaries of, or stay within, but a system where good deeds are rewarded, and bad ones punished. In some cases, there can be an instance where no social pardigm has been enforced by mature, responsible adults, and the bigger and stronger and more charming children take the role of leaders. But they do not do well at it, since they're still not developed enough to know or make the proper choices. In the absence of someone capable of distinguishing the subtlelies of peer-to-peer interaction, a state of controlled anarchy is the order of the day. I never read Lord of the Flies, though it sounds about what I'm describing. In such an instance, it becomes wrong to tell on bullies, known as being a tattletale, or a rat, etc. And this is then punished, since the ones who hold the authority are not the lazy teachers inside, leaving a school of students to their own devices, but a group of the strongest kids who beat up anyone they don't like, or who have told on them.

Children aren't equipped to determine their own social systems; In the cases where there is little, limited, or no control, they revert to simplistic and unfair systems, cruel systems which benefit only the strong, and are hard on the weak. They learn as they grow that other people are other people like they are, that they are not the center of the universe, and that they regret how they acted as children. It sounds dark, but that's how I view it. One of my closest friends, he used to bully me when we were really young, but he realized it was wrong. We went to different schools for a while, and when we next met, I held no grudge and would hang out with him. One of my friends who I've known for almost a decade, he never grew up. He's still as undeveloped mentally as a child. He lets his emotions rule him, drinks often and excessively, and does drugs, including harder ones. Him and I are no longer friends, though, after he threw that near decade of friendship away over his own selfish jealousy. He is so out of control of himself that he couldn't curb his jealousy to save a near decade of friendship.

We'll probably meet unavoidably in the near future, and probably thanks to a friend of mine who thinks that drama is the solution to all of life's problems. But he's always trying to pick a fight. When I bumped into him at the grocery store, he worked his jaw like he was loosening it up for a facepunch. When I was driving out of the parking lot, he yelled across the parking lot an obscene comment. When he first cut off our friendship, it was because I couldn't drop everything and come down to town right away for a bullshit heart to heart where he'd work me over with mind games for a few hours then ask me to boot for him. I told the friend he'd had phone for him that I had plans, that I couldn't make it. So he grabbed the phone, and started saying all kinds of horrible stuff. It wasn't that the immature insults hurt; It was that he was trying to make them hurt. He was and is as a child, throwing a temper tantrum, because he can't swallow his jealousy and pride. He demanded so much of me, and he still demands so much of others, that it is clear that he is a user. We overlooked his flaws when we were younger, but now we can't anymore. We're adults, even if he still think he's a kid.

The difference between kid social and adult social is maturity. I have met kids who're like, 12, 13, online, who are more mature than most high school seniors. And I've met adults that have the emotional and social maturity of a primary school student. And that's the difference between these two social concepts.